Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to dslrocker3
Re: Help/Advice with my Line Statistics please
Input overload, central cognitive processor failure!
Brain rebooting, absorption of nutriments required!!
Euh...
Can you put this in visual schematic form please?...
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
4 edits | 
current setup | 
proposed wiring change | 
propsed wiring change #2 |
The current setup allows for the dsl signal to have to pass through less things to get to the modem. However, the proposed revised set up would allow a better isolation and truer removal of all other wiring (by a difference of 1 wire) if I wanted to test my modem in the basement witout making any alterations other than unplugging an rj11 connection.
I also know that implementing the change and then moving the modem to the basement would be even a better idea. That would also allow the removal of 50 feet of wiring and a jack that would not longer be used. I would have to use a splitter on the DSL side of the basement jack to allow that extension cord to remain visible to the modem.
The first proposed change is very easy to implement in about 2 minutes. the second proposed change is more of pain in the ass than anything else with very little to gain considering my current line state. So let's assume for now that wiring change proposal #2 is not an option (even if it is probably the best). |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Hummm...
Perhaps this simplified version will help you to make a choice.
If i've understood the situation correctly your extension cord
which i tagged "Bridge Tap" in my drawing won't be displaced
significantly. As for N1/N2 where "N" stands for noise source,
your DSL signal is so strong this may not be a real issue most
of the time. As for the rest, the filtered "voice" section must
be invisible at DSL frequencies, essentially speaking, while we
can safely ignore the EtherNet cabling section completely!...
Considering your need for that unterminated extension cord i
suggest you focus on that part of the wiring instead... For all
we know the odd behaviour you observed previously gives us
a reason to think that your indoors "Bridge Tap" compensates
for the impedance mismatch due to another located outdoors.
If i were you i'd investigate in hope to optimize the length. It
seems to me there has to be a sweet spot so in order to find
it i'd use a very long extension cord which will be meant to be
sacrificed. My test would proceed as follows: i'd collect some
detailed statistics for a couple hours, reduce the length by a
fixed amount, collect more data again and then repeat until i
have nothing left to cut... Analysis of the collected statistics
may or may not reveal a sweet spot. Good luck and have fun!
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xbell
@cgocable.net
| reply to dslrocker3
said by dslrocker3  :I'm trying to find an opinion on which setup would be preferable out of the first 2 pictures. Number 2 but I would go Nid, cat. 5 white/blue, modem. Nid, cat. 5 white/orange, low pass filter, phones.
As I run wire all day that is the easiest for me. Of course your line is cursed so I don't know what to say anymore. |
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wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy
·AT&T Midwest
| said by dslrocker3 :I'm trying to find an opinion on which setup would be preferable out of the first 2 pictures. I think you should use the setup that has the most desirable line stats
Can you post again the effect on the line stats the extension cord has
said by xbell :
Of course your line is cursed so I don't know what to say anymore.
Its not cursed anymore......now its just special |
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
2 edits | reply to xbell
said by xbell :said by dslrocker3 :I'm trying to find an opinion on which setup would be preferable out of the first 2 pictures. Number 2 but I would go Nid, cat. 5 white/blue, modem. Nid, cat. 5 white/orange, low pass filter, phones. I'm not too overly concerned about going directly to the NID as the wire that goes from the NID into the basement is only about 5 feet long. Can you elaborate on the technical reasons for changing the wiring to the setup in the second picture instead of keeping it the same as in the first picture? Would running the wiring that goes to the modem through another jack/another step pose a concern/one more thing that could go wrong along the way? just wondering.... |
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
| reply to wayjac
said by wayjac :Can you post again the effect on the line stats the extension cord has The first one is with the inside bridge tap/extension cord connected. The second screenshot represents the connection when the extension cord was unplugged.
»Re: Help/Advice with my Line Statistics please |
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xbell
@cgocable.net
| reply to dslrocker3
said by dslrocker3 : I'm not too overly concerned about going directly to the NID as the wire that goes from the NID into the basement is only about 5 feet long. Of any section of wire in the loop that is often the most corrupted due often to proximity to electrical service panels in most homes.
Some people have the old nid in a jack at the panel and we have tested there and at the protector and that 5 feet made a big difference although short as it is.
Would running the wiring that goes to the modem through another jack/another step pose a concern/one more thing that could go wrong along the way? just wondering....
Keep it simple stupid. That saying is the best inference for this. Less is better. I try to keep no more than one connection (scotchlocked if possible) between fuses and modem.
You have multiple protectors labeled btw. Do you mean splice points. |
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
1 edit | said by xbell :
Keep it simple stupid. That saying is the best inference for this. Less is better. I try to keep no more than one connection (scotchlocked if possible) between fuses and modem.
You have multiple protectors labeled btw. Do you mean splice points.
The 5 feet of wire coming in from the NID has zero other wires coming with it, other than the grounding wire.
They are 2 old former protectors that were once hooked up to carbons and a different ground wire than is being used now. I just used them as a convenient way to split the signal 2 ways. »/speak/slidesh···0zMjA%3D |
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
| reply to dslrocker3
It looks like my scary looking diagrams scared any line noise away. Either that, or the errors decided to go on vacation this afternoon! I might just be wasting my time trying to further optimize things. |
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xbell
@cgocable.net | reply to dslrocker3
Sounds good. Is it twisted pair? |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24 | reply to dslrocker3
Exactly, i don't think noise is a concern.
But you can still try to optimize length
as a function of the SNR margin, if you
need something to keep you busy!...
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
1 edit | reply to xbell
said by xbell :
Sounds good. Is it twisted pair?
I highly doubt it's twisted pair. The wiring coming from my side of the NID doesn't even have 2 pairs in the insulation. It is just old drop wire that simply has 2 thick, non-color coded, solid peices of copper inside of it (the type that you actually need a tool like a pair of plyers to be able to even bend). |
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
1 edit | reply to Bicephale
said by Bicephale :But you can still try to optimize length as a function of the SNR margin, if you need something to keep you busy!... I do know that the extension cord clearly helps my connection. I also know that once the extension cord is connected, any of the houses jacks benefit from the increased DSL line quality.
What I have not been able to determine is if that cable needs to be connected on that exact jack or not. I wouldn't mind figuring that out as that would give me more options if it could be plugged in anywhere. The ability to move that extension cord would also allow me to have my modem's phone wiring take a more direct path to the basement while maintaining a minimal amount of unfiltered wiring. I don't actually want to have my modem fed by wiring that is held together by electrical tape in the basement and then goes through 2 different jacks before getting to my modem. That was only done to minimize the the house's dsl loop length. GRRR!!! someone stapled that wire to the wall! someone doesn't want me to move it! maybe, it's a sign from bicephale's crystal ball to just leave it where it is! LOL.
Even if I found a shorter extension cord that had the same type of effect and reduced the amount of wiring in my house, I'll probably only get a 0.5dB reduction in attenuation. oh my, what BIG problems I have with my line now! |
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wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy
·AT&T Midwest
| said by dslrocker3 :I'll probably only get a 0.5dB reduction in attenuation. oh my, what BIG problems I have with my line now! He's back in the saddle again  |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24 | M'yeah, such a display of misery breaks my heart!
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xbell
@cgocable.net
| reply to dslrocker3
said by dslrocker3 : I highly doubt it's twisted pair. The wiring coming from my side of the NID doesn't even have 2 pairs in the insulation. It is just old drop wire that simply has 2 thick, non-color coded, solid peices of copper inside of it (the type that you actually need a tool like a pair of plyers to be able to even bend). It's an old drop wire pre- 15 years ago.
Basically it has all the same characteristics that a line cord would from the parallel conductors except the wire gauge is heavier.
If you are bored and you have access to it pull it out of the hole into the basement and a cat. 5 will fit in the same hole. |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24 | Bored? You probably mean desperate for action!
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
2 edits | reply to dslrocker3
I kind of miss having an unpredictable line. In reality, no matter what else I do to my current line, there will not be any signficant improvement.
Xbell, I know you're right about the cat5 cable as it is twisted pair as that will curb excess noise but I beleive that the fact that cat5 cable is generally not meant for outdoor use could be a concern, unless I purchase some expensive outdoor graded wire. I don't have an excess noise problem so I fear doing that change will just make me lose an outdoor graded cable (even it is old).
just out of curiosity, I mesed around with that extension cord today.
signal to noise ratio with no extension cord = 21.5 dB
signal to noise ratio with the usual extenion cord = 25.5dB
signal to noise ratio with a different extension cord = 23.0dB
Now, I'm not going to suggest that people start plugging extension cords into phone jacks to see if that improves DSL signal but there has to be something to this. I'm sure that all of the textbooks would say that my wiring is just plain wrong but hey, it works for me. |
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xbell
@cgocable.net
| said by dslrocker3 :I beleive that the fact that cat5 cable is generally not meant for outdoor use could be a concern, unless I purchase some expensive outdoor graded wire. Home depot sells outdoor rated cat. 5 by the meter and it is pretty cheap.
I have some super heavy duty cat. 5 on the truck that is designed for feeds and to be bricked in but that is overkill for your app.
Being Halloween and all I guess the scariest thing in your house is your line.  |
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