Verizon Union Workers Fight LayoffsWarn of 'suicides, foreclosures and broken families' 02:00PM Thursday Aug 20 2009 by Karl Bodetags: legal · business · Politics · Verizon FIOS · Verizon Online DSLBack during Verizon's second quarter earnings call, the company announced they'd be laying off 8,000 employees this year in order to generate some savings. There's a combination of reasons for the layoffs, including continuing losses of both landline and DSL customers, and Verizon's continued shift away from more rural markets. Union workers obviously are annoyed, and the Massachusetts IBEW telephone workers' unions this week took their complaints to lawmakers in Boston, with a dash of hyperbole in tow: "Despite being a very profitable corporation, Verizon announced it wants to cut 8,000 jobs nationally and as many as 500 jobs in Massachusetts," said Myles Calvey, Business Manager of Local 2222 and Chairman of the IBEW System Council T-6. " If Verizon is allowed to do this, it will lead to suicides, foreclosures and broken families. This is nothing but pure corporate greed." As we noted last week, Verizon is also threatening the state with less investment in infrastructure if lawmakers go through with their plan to remove a century-old loophole that kept Verizon from paying property tax in the state. The entire debate over layoffs and political fisticuffs has some union workers confused about their future and the future of FiOS, if posts to our forums are any indication.
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 markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
 ·Charter Pipeline
1 edit | Huh what? "If Verizon is allowed to do this, it will lead to suicides, foreclosures and broken families. This is nothing but pure corporate greed."
So unions are on a decline and they can't figure out why..morons 
I love how they pull the "Company is doing good so please don't fire us" ploy. Like the two mean anything in business. | |
|  | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by markopoleo  :So unions are on a decline and they can't figure out why..morons They aren't, the unions bankrolled Obama's campaign, and he is their puppet now (looking at UAW). | |
| | | 
insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| Re: Huh what? said by patcat88 :They aren't, the unions bankrolled Obama's campaign, and he is their puppet now (looking at UAW). Except Bush bailed those companies out and set them up to be nationalized. Obama had to figure out a way to end it. | |
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antiphishing
Phishing Scam Terminator
Premium
join:2004-06-09
Wilkes Barre, PA
| said by markopoleo :"If Verizon is allowed to do this, it will lead to suicides, foreclosures and broken families. This is nothing but pure corporate greed." So unions are on a decline and they can't figure out why..morons I love how they pull the "Company is doing good so please don't fire us" ploy. Like the two mean anything in business. Evil Verizon is more then likely shipping more customer service and IT related jobs to third world counties like India. 
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| | | | | | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| said by antiphishing :said by markopoleo :"If Verizon is allowed to do this, it will lead to suicides, foreclosures and broken families. This is nothing but pure corporate greed." So unions are on a decline and they can't figure out why..morons I love how they pull the "Company is doing good so please don't fire us" ploy. Like the two mean anything in business. Evil Verizon is more then likely shipping more customer service and IT related jobs to third world counties like India. So? Like I said that is business sense, not union sense. | |
| | | rayeger
join:2003-07-05
North Royalton, OH
| I bet the percentage of people in India who speak English is higher that the state of California.....
Of coarse ths is pure greed, this is what our corporate society has come to, take from the bottom and give to the top. Until we start punishing greed, it is going to continue. | |
| | | | | | | | sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
1 edit | Re: Huh what? You want government to act only so much as it guarantees your invested company's profits. You want the government to protect intellectual property rights, copyrights, and ensure the physical and virtual safety of every company, naturally using US tax dollars to make that come true. At the same time you want the government to stay out of the market that most obviously isn't free, and to avoid correcting even the most obvious of market failures. All to increase the ROI of your investments.
If anything, you're the true leech. | |
| | | | 
digitalfreak
join:2005-12-09
49533 | Re: Huh what? That pretty much sums up his position perfectly. | |
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adam19k
@verizon.net
| I agree with you , as a diabled veteran 97-04 I can tell u I feel blindsided I was sure wede be good what doesnt get me is how they get away with breaching the contract and by that they have to be breaking the Law ? We went thru 7 or 8 Worldcom Layoffs for this to happen to us now. | |
| | | kmb40
join:2004-08-02
Fort Washington, MD | Thats funny! | |
| | | | | | peteconrad
join:2009-01-20
Wesley Chapel, FL
1 edit | Dude,
I work with a technician that committed suicide last month. You must be a Republican...
p | |
| 
winsyrstrife
River City Bounce
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Brooklyn, NY
clubs: | Please explain It seems that some companies don't want to deal with union workers. What keeps them from laying off all union workers or hiring only non-union workers? | |
| | 
DivineDark
join:2001-08-30
Oklahoma City, OK
clubs:
| Re: Please explain said by winsyrstrife :It seems that some companies don't want to deal with union workers. What keeps them from laying off all union workers or hiring only non-union workers? A contract | |
| | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
 ·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| said by winsyrstrife :It seems that some companies don't want to deal with union workers. What keeps them from laying off all union workers or hiring only non-union workers? CWA (Communication Workers of America) represents something like 700,000 telecom professionals. Verizon probably has at least 200-300k of them. If they laid off all union workers, where are they going to find this many workers qualified to replace them?
The answer is they can't. This is the real power unions possess.
As far as new hires go- they can hire only non-union new workers, but again- that would limit their available worker pool.
Of course, what they usually do is more like a game of chicken, and fire whoever they want to (like these 8000 folks about to lose their jobs). While Verizon would certainly be in trouble if 300k workers quit at the same time - those are 300k people who need to make a living. They won't be able to find another job at the same wage for months or even years. In other words - they're not likely to just walk out.
When it comes down to it, both VZ and the CWA are so huge that neither one can really do anything significant if the other one screws them over. Verizon needs employees, and union members need an employer. Most of what happens between the union and the company is tossing insults at each other, and nothing significant gets done. If VZ wants to fire 8000 people, they will. Probably reduce it to 7000 to put on a show of "conceding" to the union wishes, but that's about it. | |
| | | 
Eloquorius
Premium
join:2004-05-24
San Jose, CA
2 edits | Re: Please explain said by nitzan :If they [Verizon] laid off all union workers, where are they going to find this many workers qualified to replace them? The answer is they can't. I'm not so sure. Right now we have millions of people unemployed, and a great many of them are skilled IT, telecom, and other technical disciplines. Verizon knows this. It's an employer's market for sure, with many skilled worker having been out of work for months on end are now willing to be substantially underemployed rather than outright unemployed. I'm more than certain that the head of Verizon HR (along with a slew of other, uh, "voices" inside and outside of the company) have assured Verizon management that if they want to replace the union deadweight now is a time like no other to do just that.
It might take several months of layoff, then hiring, followed by some re-training, but Verizon could de-union itself more easily now than ever before. | |
| | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: Please explain As an employer myself, I can tell you this is not so simple. I was hiring for a support position back in April. Out of hundreds of resumes only a handful of people were even close to being qualified, out of those the majority wanted almost twice the wage we were hiring for. In the end only about 1% of the people were both reasonably qualified and fit our target wage range.
This was for just one position. Imagine going through this for 300,000 positions. They'd have to hire an army of HR workers just to handle all the hiring and firing - not to mention there is NO WAY they could find people qualified enough to replace the previous worker immediately. Even experienced techs take between a few weeks to a few months before they work at full capacity.
Sure, we have a ton of laid off IT guys on the market, but picture this: you take a Java developer who used to make $80k/year, and try to teach him to climb telephone poles and how to properly punch lines in a PBX, and then pay him $40k/year. You'll end up with a worker who's less efficient than the previous one, spends months being dead weight until they actually learn everything, and has lower moral because they hate their new life. (the mortgage they took when they made $80k didn't look too bad - until they started making $40k and suddenly the mortgage eats up half their salary)
I think the point I'm trying to make is- a Verizon executive would be literally insane to try and replace all union workers at once with non-union. It cannot be done without losing 90% of your workers - and customers. | |
| | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Please explain said by nitzan :This was for just one position. Imagine going through this for 300,000 positions. They'd have to hire an army of HR workers just to handle all the hiring and firing - not to mention there is NO WAY they could find people qualified enough to replace the previous worker immediately. Even experienced techs take between a few weeks to a few months before they work at full capacity. Sure, we have a ton of laid off IT guys on the market, but picture this: you take a Java developer who used to make $80k/year, and try to teach him to climb telephone poles and how to properly punch lines in a PBX, and then pay him $40k/year. You'll end up with a worker who's less efficient than the previous one, spends months being dead weight until they actually learn everything, and has lower moral because they hate their new life. (the mortgage they took when they made $80k didn't look too bad - until they started making $40k and suddenly the mortgage eats up half their salary) I think the point I'm trying to make is- a Verizon executive would be literally insane to try and replace all union workers at once with non-union. It cannot be done without losing 90% of your workers - and customers. And whats wrong with that? Telephone company has a captive customer base, same as Walgreens, Walmart, and McDonalds. T1 and T3 lines aren't made through spontaneous generation, and you can rip them down if they do appear through spontaneous generation. No matter what they do, people will still stick with the telco, there are no alternatives to ISDN, T1s, frame relay, SONET, DSL, last mile fiber. Cable companies rarely have a functioning carrier grade business side. Last mile business grade will almost always be a telco loop (save for a handful of microwave links by cell carriers who had savvy enough predecessors to hoard all the spectrum). | |
| | | | | nonymous
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
1 edit | said by nitzan :Sure, we have a ton of laid off IT guys on the market, but picture this: you take a Java developer who used to make $80k/year, and try to teach him to climb telephone poles and how to properly punch lines in a PBX, and then pay him $40k/year. You'll end up with a worker who's less efficient than the previous one, spends months being dead weight until they actually learn everything, and has lower moral because they hate their new life. (the mortgage they took when they made $80k didn't look too bad - until they started making $40k and suddenly the mortgage eats up half their salary) I think the point I'm trying to make is- a Verizon executive would be literally insane to try and replace all union workers at once with non-union. It cannot be done without losing 90% of your workers - and customers. A union telecom tech with overtime easily makes more than 40,000. However, you are correct. Unlike the java developer who does most or all of their work in a controlled climate a telcom tech works inside and outside in all weather conditions. A storm comes thru they still need to work if not more so.
Also a java developer probably even though if they work long hours has more leeway when they work. If taking work home maybe go to the kids ball game then do the work late at night. As a telecom tech you work needs of the company no choice. As a programmer maybe if work on weekends chose sat or sun as telecom the company chooses for you.
It is cold or hot outside you work. Storm comes thru you work. That is a massive difference some do not think about.
Most people think they could do a techs job with little training. The educated treat it like a kindergarten job. The uneducated think it comes with say 3 months training and anyone like them can do it. It is just punching down and connecting wires how hard is that? | |
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pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Canada | Re: Please explain Many people also voted for Bush, twice ... | |
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ReVeLaTeD
Premium
join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
| said by nitzan :As an employer myself, I can tell you this is not so simple. I was hiring for a support position back in April. Out of hundreds of resumes only a handful of people were even close to being qualified, out of those the majority wanted almost twice the wage we were hiring for. In the end only about 1% of the people were both reasonably qualified and fit our target wage range. I'd be interested in more details about your definition of the word "qualified". Also, if that many people felt the position was worth more than you were asking it makes me wonder if you were undervaluing said position, which is only contributing to the overall problem I have with businesses. Yes, I know times are rough. Yes, I know the financial markets suck. Yes, I know that employers have to be a little more selective. What I don't like is when they degrade (or overvalue) positions.
For example, at a previous employer they were paying some regular IT staff six figure salaries to do literally nothing. They had the skills, they just didn't do anything. Over 100 people in IT with the majority making six figures. Wasted money. Another company wanted to hire a developer for $40k. In California. Come on now, that's not acceptable. I could make more money in customer service. | |
| | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: Please explain said by ReVeLaTeD :Another company wanted to hire a developer for $40k. In California. Come on now, that's not acceptable. I could make more money in customer service. We were hiring for a customer service position, actually.
What you're saying is really funny to me. You're somehow expecting jobs to pay six-figures or whatever, and seem to feel a "mere" $40k is below your standards. Good luck finding a six-figures job in this economy if you get "restructed".... | |
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ReVeLaTeD
Premium
join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
| Re: Please explain said by nitzan :said by ReVeLaTeD :Another company wanted to hire a developer for $40k. In California. Come on now, that's not acceptable. I could make more money in customer service. We were hiring for a customer service position, actually. What you're saying is really funny to me. You're somehow expecting jobs to pay six-figures or whatever, and seem to feel a "mere" $40k is below your standards. Good luck finding a six-figures job in this economy if you get "restructed".... No, I don't expect a developer to make six figures. I expect a developer to get paid a fair wage based on what they're developing and for whom.
If said developer is making a new internal system for Waxie Sanitary, $60k is appropriate.
If said developer is making a new internal system for General Atomics, a higher salary is likely appropriate.
All I'm saying: if you're finding the greater majority of applicants think your offering is too low, maybe it is. | |
| | | | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: Please explain Ok, that sounds a bit more reasonable. 
The reason those applicants wanted more $ was not that we were offering a low wage - we were offering a fair wage for the position. The problem was we were hiring for a VoIP customer support position - but we got many MANY resumes from people who were either non-qualified (no tech experience whatsoever) - or people who were overqualified (developers, experienced sys admins, etc.) - those overqualified obviously wanted a higher wage than we were willing to pay. | |
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ReVeLaTeD
Premium
join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
| Re: Please explain said by nitzan :Ok, that sounds a bit more reasonable. The reason those applicants wanted more $ was not that we were offering a low wage - we were offering a fair wage for the position. The problem was we were hiring for a VoIP customer support position - but we got many MANY resumes from people who were either non-qualified (no tech experience whatsoever) - or people who were overqualified (developers, experienced sys admins, etc.) - those overqualified obviously wanted a higher wage than we were willing to pay. That's understandable. But did you elicit the reason that the overqualified were willing to "settle" for a lower position? If it's just the economy that's one thing. But if any of them were like me, they might have been overqualified but undereducated. I have held an auditor position but am not a certified auditor. I work in IT right now and only have my MCP. I've worked customer service and sales while having significant technical knowledge. I did so in the hopes of advancement, which I think a lot of people these days have lost sight of - they go to college for a degree and then expect to jump right into a position OR the economy is so rough that they will settle for anything. Neither is a good choice. | |
| | | | | | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27 | Re: Please explain The economy. Basically they were looking for a job anywhere they could get it. | |
| | | | | kmb40
join:2004-08-02
Fort Washington, MD | YOur right on with the moral piece. Any progressive thinking IT person (Java Developer) actually may commit suicide after working in a Telco. | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by nitzan :CWA (Communication Workers of America) represents something like 700,000 telecom professionals. Verizon probably has at least 200-300k of them. If they laid off all union workers, where are they going to find this many workers qualified to replace them? The answer is they can't. This is the real power unions possess. Very unlikely Verizon would ever fire all their union employees. BUT, if they did, a very sizable percentage of those union employees would quit the union and go work for Verizon anyway. So it wouldn't be as hard to replace those workers as you think. | |
| | |
Flibbetigibb
@lmco.com
| I don't think they'd have any trouble at all re-staffing with non-union people these days. There are plenty of technical folks looking for work right now.
The more pressing reason why not would be that they'd attract the attention of the Chicago Way thugs who currently infest the White House. | |
| | | | |
Flibbetigibb
@lmco.com | Re: Please explain Simple solution there: do what thousands of other companies have done, and move to a right-to-work state where union thugs don't run the show. | |
| | | | cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| Re: Please explain said by Flibbetigibb :
Simple solution there: do what thousands of other companies have done, and move to a right-to-work state where union thugs don't run the show.
California is a right to work state and the union thugs indeed run the show, try doing any decent sized construction job in LA or San Francisco without union labor and you're in trouble. All right to work means is that anyone can join the union, it reduces but doesn't eliminate nepotizm.
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20 | Re: Please explain California is an at-will state... | |
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MASSFIOSTECH
@verizon.net
1 edit | and send an untrained underpaid non union worker up a pole within feet of thousands of volts of power for 10 bucks an hour. I want to say your welcome on behalf of all union workers for things like WEEKENDS, OVERTIME PAID HOLIDAYS & VACATIONS HEALTH BENEFITS PENSIONS PROFIT SHARING SAFE WORKING CONDITIONS AND THE LIST GOES ON you do not realize that all of the benefits of your hard work are brought to you by organized labor whether you realize it or not. You call us thugs we like to think of ourselves as the people who level the playing fields. OF WHAT UNION WERE THE GUYS FROM ENRON OR BERNIE MADOFF MEMBERS? And we are the thugs? | |
| |
sevl
@videotron.ca
| Here in Motreal, there's a cable company (Videotron Ltd) who wanted to contracted out their installation department.
They sold all their 650 unioned installation/service technicians to the company chose to do the cable installations and service calls.
There was no way for the union to let Videotron sale their technicians. All the 2200 unioned employees went on strike, the company locked them out. For the company, the 650 technicians wasn't part of the company anymore. The company sold all the trucks, the tools.
The lock-out last 13 months. With no or little experienced cable technicians, the cable plant was falling, the customers were exasperated. The company had no choice ton cancel the sale of the technicians.
Here's the story :
»cupe.ca/BargainingSettlements/vi···lashback | |
| | |
MASSFIOSTECH
@verizon.net | Re: Corporate greed? Hey genius if all union workers were lazy then nothing would be built in this country. I understand that you are referring to less than 1% of union members but I'm not sure that the other readers do so i thought i'd make it clear for them | |
| | | 
smartguy4u
join:2009-08-21
New Bedford, MA
| Re: Corporate greed? I would have to say that it is a lot easier to be lazy in a union and get away with it then being in a non union enviroment. Being in a union you also have a set amount of work that you are required to perform on a daily basis and it is not much maybe 2 jobs a day i thought was what one of the techs had told me.
In saying this things get built but it takes much longer to get built which is fine and all but other non union cable companies can get much more done in a short amount of time. | |
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massfiostech
@verizon.net | Re: Corporate greed? The missing ingredient in a non union installation is quality. We do not fear reprisal for taking longer on a job to do it right | |
| | rex1114
join:2009-09-29
| I am sorry to say that you are full of crap! Verizon is VERY profitable company, yet a few years back cut retirement benefits for management employees. Also, ask the downtown middle aged management types in Tampa what happened last time union employees in the new England area went on strike. (most have never worked outside in their lives) they were required to go through pole climbing school (verizon ran classes 24 hrs a day, some went from midnight to 7) and travel to the affected areas and replace them. If upper management doesn't care about their own, what do you think they care about us! next time that happens you should ask those managers if wish they were union. | |
| 
Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Layoff? There is a big difference between reducing jobs by offering an enhanced retirement and laying off. Only workers hired after the 2003 contract can be laid off and that is only after the older workers have had a chance at the enhanced package.
But LAYOFF makes a bolder headline. | |
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Zen6
@rr.com | Re: Layoff? This is exactly what is happening. | |
| Bob61571
join:2008-08-08
Washington, IL
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·DIRECTV
| 2 Examples where Verizon Service Declined 2 Examples from Central Illinois where Verizon Service has Declined, Caused 7-8 Week Street Construction Delays
1) 7 week delay in Washington, Illinois
»www.washingtontimesreporter.com/···ext-week
Quote from Washington, IL article above:
+++++++++++++++++++
Construction on North Cummings Lane is seven weeks behind, and traffic will be rerouted beginning Monday in an effort to expedite the project.
Work on the roadway has been suspended since June 1 due to “Verizon’s prolonged delays in relocating its underground phone cables,” said city administrator Bob Morris.
City engineer Ken Newman said the phone company finally moved the cables Friday, and work on the sewer system was expected to resume Tuesday, weather permitting.
Work on the sewer system should be completed by the end of the week, allowing road construction crews to resume their work next week.
“They tell us they have everything out of the way, and I hope we don’t run into anything more,” Newman said.
Still, Newman said, it has been a “frustrating process,” and Verizon had no excuse to delay its responsibilities for nearly two months.
The telephone company had frequent communication, including several pre-construction meetings, with city officials in the months leading up to the project, Newman said.
Morton also reportedly had problems with Verizon and has had to postpone a project on East Jefferson Street because of the phone company’s failure to relocate its utilities.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2) 8 week delay in Morton, Illinois
»www.mortontimesnews.com/news/x18···e-months
Quote from Morton article above:
++++++++++++++++++++++
Superintendent of public works Bob Wraight said the project is starting about eight weeks later than planned because Verizon workers discovered phone wires in an unexpected area of the street.
“We had engineers out there last fall and didn't see it and Verizon didn't know it was there either. The cables have been relocated and moved now, but if we cut that, the whole east end of town would be out of service,” Wraight said.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | |
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See 9 replies to this post | |
lorennerol
Premium
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA
| Unions need to retool These old-school unions need to get their collective heads out of the sand. Unions dictating employment numbers to companies is EXACTLY what got GM into such a clusterf&*k. It's strategy that can work for employees in the short term, but is ultimately disastrous.
Unions were formed to protect against company mistreatment of employees, not to run the companies. They need to get back to their original purpose. | |
| |
See 13 replies to this post | |
MichaelWacey
OwlSaver
Premium
join:2005-01-30
Berwyn, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| There should be competiton amoung Unions It seems to me that much of what people dislike about Unions would go away if they had to compete. Just as Companies are not allowed to be monopolies, neither should Unions be allowed to be monopolies.
That is, there would be multiple Unions with people who can do a job. Then, every three to five years, the company would put the job of supplying labor out to bid. My guess is that the Union would change but most of the employees would switch Unions.
This is exactly how outsourcing works. I think it could be a good compromise between Unions and Companies. | |
| | 
firephoto
KDE
Premium
join:2003-03-18
·Verizon west (ex G..
| Re: There should be competiton amoung Unions said by MichaelWacey :It seems to me that much of what people dislike about Unions would go away if they had to compete. Just as Companies are not allowed to be monopolies, neither should Unions be allowed to be monopolies. That is, there would be multiple Unions with people who can do a job. Then, every three to five years, the company would put the job of supplying labor out to bid. My guess is that the Union would change but most of the employees would switch Unions. Yes this would be perfect for the companies because then they can eliminate that life long employee thing and have new blood every 5 years and never have to worry about long term health or retirement costs. They could even get work from out of country unions so they could get even cheaper labor. Sort of a disposable union labor force because there's always some group that's cheaper out there waiting for the same job... Great for the boss, not so good for someone wanting a little bit more than minimum wage (which the same argement parallels).
The power of the union that is never spoken by these big corporate schills is that these unions can sway millions of REAL votes during elections because these unions actually do things for the workers and not the multi-millin dollar companies. Your 'free from monopolies' companies spend billions of dollars every year on lobbying elected officials just to see their bottom line rise with rarely anything going towards the betterment of their employees.
Making money is great but why is it the ones that make the most cry the loudest when they have to pay a little more to keep making the most? Pretty pathetic and pretty greedy too.
--
Say no to JAMS! | |
| | | nutcr0cker
join:2003-04-02
Chandler, AZ
| Re: There should be competiton amoung Unions If these republicans/neocons/whiners were even slightly less hypocitical they would start competing with the Indians/Mexicans/Chinese. Open up all markets and lets see how competitive most of you sorry asses are.If Americans are stupid enough to vote for Bush twice...anything goes | |
| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: There should be competiton amoung Unions said by nutcr0cker :If these republicans/neocons/whiners were even slightly less hypocitical they would start competing with the Indians/Mexicans/Chinese. Open up all markets and lets see how competitive most of you sorry asses are.If Americans are stupid enough to vote for Bush twice...anything goes Lets outsource Congress to india. | |
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PGHammer
join:2003-06-09
Accokeek, MD
clubs:
·Comcast
| Cost-of-labor is WHY the United States is losing every (or any) job or skillset that can be outsourced. If you were a global business, where would you rather do your scutwork, skillsets being equal? Where it costs $75 (fully-burdened rate, including benefits package) or half (or even as little as a quarter) of that? Let's be honest; a LOT of programming and coding (and especially call-center work) is scutwork - repetitive and BO-ring in the extreme! (Almost NO programmer, even a Java or game programmer, wants to be a programmer forever; the same applies to working in a call-center.) India got where it is because they have skilled and semi-skilled labor at the (then) lowest cost. However, India isn't the big source for lowest-cost semi-skilled labor (even IT) anymore; eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Croatia, and even Serbia!) have lots of workers with the same skillset; even better, especially for EU-based globals, they already know English, and can be hired cheaper than their Indian counterparts. (Oracle Europe broght EMEA support back *home* to Romania after over a decade in India. It wasn't dissatisfaction with the Indian support people, either; it was a straight CBA decision. (CBA=cost-benefit analysis) The CBA (often done annually, in some cases, even quarterly) is what determines make-or-break for a glabal business. (Exchange rates and sales can fluctuate for a variety of reasons; if sales plummet due to an exchange-rate imbalance, the company's revenues will take it in the neck.)
That's the REAL reason American unions are upset with outsourcing; the CBA is stacked against them. | |
| MichaelWacey
OwlSaver
Premium
join:2005-01-30
Berwyn, PA | Does Verizon pay Property Tax in other States? If they do, then, they should bite the bullet and pay it in MA. If no other State makes them pay property taxes, then MA should not be making this change. | |
| | 
major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: Does Verizon pay Property Tax in other States? said by MichaelWacey :If they do, then, they should bite the bullet and pay it in MA. If no other State makes them pay property taxes, then MA should not be making this change. Who pays what depends on how desperate the State is to bring in an employer. If the State is backwards/illiterate and has to support an overwhelming number of elderly (like PA) then a corp like VZ will gets all kinds of tax breaks. NJ, OTOH, at one point told VZ to go f*ck itself and as a result, VZ had been paying something called a business personal property tax ("BPPT"). But as of Nov 2008, VZ decided it just wasn't going to pay the tax anymore that had been in place since 1940. This article makes it out to be that VZ decided on its own not to pay.
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The Toll
Tracking Lord Stanley
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woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
·EarthLink
·DSL EXTREME
| hmmm....... Most union workers are not lazy and useless, on the contrary. Do we still need them? That is debateable. What rights do you have in a non union shop? None! Your rights are like managements, you serve at the will of the company , unless you have an employment contract. can you be fired for any reason, most likely unless it is prohibited by state or Federal law. Can you be fired out of seniority ? Sure. Unions don't protect useless and lazy incompetent workers, they protect the system. I am not an advocate of unions, but I respect what they have done for the worker. If you need to fire someone, there usually is a proceedure that has to be followed. Which is where the problem arises. Someone has been with company A for x amount of years, and they have a problem getting rid of them. Has management followed the correct proceedures? evaluations per contract, letters to file, etc etc, it is called progressive discipline. I had union employess and had no problem getting rid of them. There is just a little dog and pony show you have to follow. And document docuement.......that is where the problem is, management doesn't do this and can't understand why there is a problem. You don't get rid of anyone after years and just say they are useless, if they did true performance appraisals, this would be a no brainer. Peace. And yes Obama has a birth certificate
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BlooMe | |
| | tdouglas22
join:2001-09-25
Memphis, TN
| Re: hmmm....... said by woody7 :Most union workers are not lazy and useless, on the contrary. Do we still need them? That is debatable. What rights do you have in a non union shop? None! Your rights are like managements, you serve at the will of the company , unless you have an employment contract. can you be fired for any reason, most likely unless it is prohibited by state or Federal law. Can you be fired out of seniority ? Sure. Unions don't protect useless and lazy incompetent workers, they protect the system. I am not an advocate of unions, but I respect what they have done for the worker. If you need to fire someone, there usually is a procedure that has to be followed. Which is where the problem arises. Someone has been with company A for x amount of years, and they have a problem getting rid of them. Has management followed the correct procedures? evaluations per contract, letters to file, etc etc, it is called progressive discipline. I had union employees and had no problem getting rid of them. There is just a little dog and pony show you have to follow. And document document.......that is where the problem is, management doesn't do this and can't understand why there is a problem. You don't get rid of anyone after years and just say they are useless, if they did true performance appraisals, this would be a no brainer. Peace. And yes Obama has a birth certificate That's a big problem with ALL of this. The lack of work, not wanting to do a job correctly. Not wanting to follow through the proper steps to get something done. This goes through so many levels of society as well as business. From management to the employees and it ends up doing more harm than good. | |
| | |
woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
·EarthLink
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: hmmm....... Whats that phrase? ...."you get what you pay for".....Non union myself, but as against unions for "philosophical" reasons, I don't think that all union people are lazy, shiftless, non caring people, on the contrary. But with years of observation, I have come to realize that most anti union people are from "right to work states" by far.And you know who you are. You seem to think that if you bust your azz, and tow the company line, you won't lose your job, get laid off etc. Opps wrong, your company gets purchased and the new owners want to go in a different direction etc. How about a major meltdown in the economy? bye bye, and what recourse do `you have? Oops none! At least the unions will fight for your rights etc. Do you honestly think that the corporations give a rats azz about it's employees? Most don't. As a side note, if we had reasonable medical
( notice I said reasonable not free) It would take the strain off a lot of companies, not to mention keeping people from going bankrupt, and guess who is against it.....people from the "rust belt right to work states.
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BlooMe | |
|
ReasonVoice
@rogers.com
 from:
WareWolF2k
thumbs down from:
TKJunkMail
| You anti-union people are so stupid CEOs make 1/3 of all the pay in this country just to play golf and wine and dine with their executive clients and all I hear from you is complaining about unions which at the very least actually contribute something work unlike the managers of these companies.
700 Billion initially + Trillions more given to the banks so they could keep their precious bonuses for wrecking the economy while the car companies had to fight tooth and nail for less than 1/10 of that and they were still forced to lay off tens of thousands and make massive concessions because everybody blames the unions and not the rich oligarchs.
No I am not a member of a union, yes I acknowledge that unions can go overboard sometimes, but I also have common sense and see that the anger in this country is misdirected.
If Verizon is hurting and needs to fire 8,000 employees I wonder how fat the bonus of it's CEO and executives is going to be for laying off these workers? A few hundred million more with sprinkles on top? | |
| | 
Big Pete 82
join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: You anti-union people are so stupid You lost all credibility at
said by ReasonVoice :
CEOs make 1/3 of all the pay in this country just to play golf and wine and dine with their executive clients...
Care to back up this claim with any data? Where do people get the idea that CEOs are out on the golf course all day smoking a cigar while the "minions" are all back at the office or out in the field slaving away? | |
| | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: You anti-union people are so stupid CEOs are the Senior PR face of a corporation. They have only a superficial visibility into the structure beneath them. Its like the president of the USA, he says a couple sentences to his staffers once a day, and the rest of the day he is negotiation with power players, and networking, and making deals with fat men smoking a cigar. The CEO has to deal with institutional shareholders who could Universal Default your corp in 1 day if they sell their shares, testify infront of courts and congress committees, convince barons of capitalism to provide non-mafia interest rate financing to the corp, give fruity speeches at industry conferences (networking, for your current job, and your next job), and goto play golf and fine dining to find new contractors and companies for B2B contracts with your company, and your future "consulting" job after you resign from your current company, and negotiate off the record keep the status quo/monopolies in effect with your competitors and regulators/politicians. You have a COO deal with anything that comes up from below the pyramid. | |
| | | |
Big Pete 82
join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA | Re: You anti-union people are so stupid Replace CEO with union head and corp with union...oops | |
| | | | |
MASSFIOSTECH
@verizon.net
from:
WareWolF2k
| Re: You anti-union people are so stupid the highest paid Union International presidents make around 300k/year and represent MILLIONS of workers. If you wouldn't mind please list the names of CEOs that make less than 5 times that. oops I forgot undeserved bonuses 20 times that | |
| |
TECH9
@verizon.net
| I am a union worker, but I see this from a broader perspective..First, A CEO's chief responsibility is to the Board of Directors and shareholders to insure company profitability. Second, I see no mention of the GOVERNMENT's responsibility in this...you speak about the amount given to the banks, but not to the auto companies.....Are you serious?? Guess what, those bailed out banks are STILL paying bonuses, under the watchful eye of the pay Czar(heh)...Where is the SEIU now??(hearing crickets..)where are the people that were protesting AIG?..the banks should have FAILED...the same clowns that got them into this mess are still there, being rewarded by the government..
In terms of the auto companies, I will not buy a car from GM nor (zzzzzz)Chrysler, because the government and the unions own them..I can't wait to see the UAW negotiate with the UAW on a labor contract...Ford is the only American car company I would consider purchasing a vehicle from...why, because it it PRIVATELY owned.....Just the idea of a president of the US being able to fire a CEO of a major corporation is appalling to me....the bailouts, the bankruptcy that occurred anyway, the UAW and gov't takeover of the company, bankrupting the many investors these companies had(many of them were working people like you and me)....
Bottom line, I am a working guy that 100% believes in capitalism and gov't staying the hell out my pocket!!!! I want to "pursue happiness", make as much money as I want, without the gov't taxing me to death and giving it to someone else..... | |
| nonymous
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
| Layoff workers. I will still get my fiber. Unions are mostly running scared. Last contract at Qwest the CWA was more concerned with the DNC convention and pushing Obama's healthcare. Qwest union got the same ole contract shoved down them but now the CWA is flaunting national healthcare for all per Obama. So when we are out of work do we still pay union dues to the CWA for Obama's healthcare?
Plus I love people on here who think layoffs are great. Saves the company money etc. for bigger management bonuses. But even with all the layoffs and cut backs on construction they still think they deserve and are going to get the cheap fiber to their home. Maybe with big discounts thru the layoff savings.
If a company is laying off workers the construction or rollout of fiber will slow down. | |
| | ciucca
join:2004-05-24
| Re: Layoff workers. I will still get my fiber. Why is there so much hate for Labor Unions by the people who need them the most? Unabated capitalism is inherently more evil than any labor union. It seems to me the 1% with 80% of the wealth have done an outstanding job brainwashing the other 99%.
| |
| | | soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
2 edits | Re: Layoff workers. I will still get my fiber. A lot of people are just posting talking points they've heard from talking heads. I live in Dallas-Forth Worth, Verizon has been laying off management employees and replacing them with temp workers and H1-B Visa holders. You'd would swear that you were in India if you walked into some of Verizon's buildings here. The truth is no matter where you work you'll always have people that work, and those that don't. It really isn't a union vs. non-union issue, it the executives vs. everyone else. I have many friends and neighbors laid off by Verizon in the last 3 years. Most were "management" who were replaced by temp workers with no benefits. Like a poster above stated, most of those management employees had most of their benefits taken away prior to being laid off. Most of the ex-Verizon employees I know blame upper management, not the union. | |
| | | | ciucca
join:2004-05-24
| Re: Layoff workers. I will still get my fiber. I work for Alcatel-Lucent in NJ. I was here when it was AT&T Bell labs.
First came the H1-B Visa workers, now with the internet they have been hiring people in Bangalore and Bejing for years. I now work in a group that is 50% oversea workers and 50% US workers. Every time they need to cut cost guess who gets RIFed?
You would not believe the poor quality work that comes from these places. The overall quality of this place has deteriorated to laughable. But so what! All software companies would rather have lower cost than quality. I often wonder if the CWA was strong here they would never get away with this. The CWA had been defanged here a long time ago. | |
| 
cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
·Verizon FIOS
| Something smells... I Think this is Verizon, playing extortionist with the State of Mass.
Is Verizon no longer a utility but a corporation?
Should Verizon continue to get tax-exemption when it's profitable?
Why can a company be allowed to layoff thousands of employees AND keep tax exemptions?
Have you noticed "what" companies have been losing alot of money during this recession and those that aren't even affected and why?
I think Verizon needs to go the way of "ma bell" and be drawn-quartered into more competitive, smaller, communication companies.
AS for the union guys, well, you didn't see this coming? (I thought all the Fios techs were rolling in the dough, especially with the OT...) 
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Splat | |
| 
wdoa
join:2001-10-16
Spencer, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
| Verizon preparing to sell off parts of Massachusetts Verizon is not happy with Massachusetts because the legislature won't roll over and give them a statewide video franchise and also because the state want's to take away a 1912 exemption on taxing their poles. I suspect Verizon is slimming down Massachusetts and will at least attempt to sell off those areas of the state (central and western) that they haven't cherry picked for FIOS. Sorry you Obama haters, but if we allow a totally free market like you want 2/3rds of this country wouldn't have phone service or electricity. The public needs to be put back into these public utilities. | |
| |
See 10 replies to this post | |
Harddrive
Premium
join:2000-09-20
Norwich, CT
| Unions aren't the problem. i love it how everytime the word 'union' is mentioned around here that Unions become the whipping boy. you'd think, by listening to uneducated folks around here, that Unions were the cause of all things bad.
The economy? The Unions' fault.
Electing Obama as President? The Unions' fault.
The continuing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? The Unions' fault.
Twitter suffering a DDoS attack last week? The Unions' fault.
GM, Ford, and Dodge not managing its production to meet customer demand? The Unions' fault.
Osama Bin-Laden not dead yet? The Unions' fault.
The Puregas Air Dryer monitoring system not working correctly? The Unions' fault.
Archivis subscribing to World of Warcraft again? The Unions' fault.
Karl Bode always siding with the consumer? The Unions' fault.
Sarah Palin possibly moving to Rhode Island? The Unions' fault.
MrFixItCT changing his user name to MrFixItSC? The Unions' fault.
MrsFixItCT not changing her user name to MrFixItSC yet? The Unions' fault.
The local cop in Norwich CT that was using his cell phone without a hands free device yesterday? The Unions' fault.
Tina Fey doing an incredible job impersonating Sarah Palin? The Unions' fault.
The sudden death of Billy Mayes? The Unions' fault.
SLD getting his panties in a wad about WoW topics in the news ticker? The Unions' fault.
Whitesnake not being able to continue their tour with Judas Priest? The Unions' fault.
Flight recorders for Air France Flight 447 not being found? The Unions' fault.
Sharondippity being one of the top 5 'babes' on DSLR? The Unions' fault.
Me being laid-off last Sept and not finding a job until May? The Unions' fault.
Pulp Fiction being one of the best movies of the 90s? The Unions' fault.
The high cost of health care in this Country? The Unions' fault.
Omega taking a digger on his mountain bike a few days ago? The Unions' fault.
A realtor trying to make my co-worker by a house that has mold in the attic? The Unions' fault.
And the number one reason its the Unions' fault? Its the Unions' fault.
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I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Unions aren't the problem. Ummm.. are you kidding?
You're SO wrong on the auto industry alone. (The rest, you're just being silly)
GM, Ford, and Dodge,... how much was union burden on a cost of a car alone? ... try $4,500.. interesting that the cash for clunkers mess was about the same.. was that linked? not sure.. but who knows.
Either way.. the union likes to drive up wages for their workers - FAR more than they need to. I mean, why does a worker need $65,000 a year to install lug-nuts on a car..? ... and THEN get full paid benefits?
The union wants to represent ALL workers and um, what would that make them? .. another branch of government perhaps? Unions HAD their place, but in today's economy and world, not so much.
Unions like to drive up wages which only drives up costs for everyone else. Those that aren't union pay more while making less than those represented by a strong arm union.. the unions response?? "you're not making enough.. rally and let us represent you"...
You want greed? Look at the union bosses themselves.
I could go on as to why the unions ARE in fact a problem in SO many ways.. they want TOO much, do very little. They want to DICTATE even how you vote in elections which is just wrong. The reward people based on time instead of performance.. even been in a union? Judging from the way you speak, I'd say you're a union man for sure. But, ever been on a job where some moron with 1 more month's time got the management position while you, who does your job well, goes above and beyond, better at what you do, slacks off less doesn't get promoted.
Seriously.. I can't believe you even posted such a horrible piece of work..
And for the record.. Obama.. that was the union's fault... check your union's news letter as who you were supposed to vote for. The dems have been in the pockets of the unions.. The unions were a BIG cause for why the auto industry went south and for their hard work, they were handed a large chunk of ownership in 'em.. pretty nice, huh? | |
| | |
Harddrive
Premium
join:2000-09-20
Norwich, CT
| Re: Unions aren't the problem. ok, where do i start with you....
first off, thanks for reading my stupid post. you replying to such... well, you get the idea.
you don't see any other car companies asking the government for handouts, do you? its because they managed their production/inventory correctly in these tough economic times.
fyi: the Unions don't like to drive up wages. they want their members to get a raise. why can't an employee get a raise every once in a while? Upper management gets a raise.
would you take a job for $65k with full benefits installing lug nuts on a car? fyi: he not only puts the lug nuts on, but the wheels and tires as well. yep, one guy does all 3 of those tasks 4 times for one car. and he has to do it before the next car comes into place for its turn. he's just not sitting around. he's always doing one of those tasks.
i can't believe you're that stupid about 'Unions HAD their place'. tell that to the pilot that just did a round trip flight from NYC to LA and back. if it weren't for the pilots' Union, he'd be forced to fly that round trip again, endangering all the passengers on that next flight because he's too tired to fly the aircraft safely. i don't think China has Unions. see how they treat their factory workers. 16 hours days, no benefits, and about 2 dollars a day in wages.
Unions don't like to drive up wages. what they want is the wages of their members to match the cost of living. what good is it to the economy if you start a job at $40k and 10 years later, you're still making $40k?
Union bosses = greed? please. they aren't some fat cat like upper management making a million a year.
Unions don't want 'TOO much'. they just want pay to keep their members' in the same standard of living that they have.
they don't want to dictate how you vote. they let you know who is the best candidate to vote for that supports the Unions thoughts. union members still vote they way they want to.
the unions don't reward anyone. the company rewards the workers. the unions just make sure that it is fair and equal. the pay scales are based on time on the job. our military has a pay scale based on time in service and they aren't union.
yes, i have been a union member. for 10 years i was a member of a telecommunications union, but i was far from a 'union man'. the union didn't like me very much cause i spoke my mind. it didn't help when i was 'saved' twice by the company from a layoff and the next senior guy got laid off (it was in the contract that the company could do this). was that my fault i took it upon myself to learn Enterprise VoIP while the others did not? i improved myself on my own time and got rewarded for it by keeping my job.
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I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Unions aren't the problem. You just go on believing all what you're told to believe.. the unions are responsible for that too. 
By the way, the next time you want to rent a conference room at your local run down Holiday Inn, and realize that it's WAAAAY too expensive, why don't you find out why you can't afford to.. the over prices, MANDATORY union labor required to come out and hook up YOUR lighting, dress YOUR tables, etc.
Its also clear, from your reply, you didn't reap my post, probably just skimmed it.
But, for the record, what I laughed at most was that since he also put son lugs nuts, AND 4 tires (with the aid of a robot) he still needs 65k and has no need to pay a share of health benefits huh? (For the record, the tires are already on the wheels...) Still, not a 65k a year job there buddy. There are PLENTY of people "always doing something" not just sitting around and they still don't deserve 65k for un-skilled labor.
Unions do drive up wages.. for themselves... they also drive up costs to those NOT represented making a lesser wage. Unions only care about their own existence.. period.
I've been a union rep'd employee before. I rallied the union in.. and I was brave enough to rally them right out on their ass too. | |
| | | | |
Harddrive
Premium
join:2000-09-20
Norwich, CT
| Re: Unions aren't the problem. i'm not told to believe anything by anyone.
fyi: i don't stay at Holiday Inn. i stay at a Residence Inn by Marriott. reward points are awesome, aren't they.
yeah i didn't 'reap' your post but i did thoroughly read your post.
its not some lug nuts. at GM its actually 20 lug nuts (5 per wheel). they all have to be torqued down correctly. oh and he's not helped by a robot but a hydraulic lift so he doesn't hurt his back from lifting all those tires during his 8 hour shift.
and whats wrong with not having to pay a share of health benefits? sounds like an excellent thing. employer paid health care... damn, what a concept. wish i could get a job with that.
explain to me the part you said along the lines that unions drive up costs to those not represented making a lesser wage. fyi: non-union members can actually make more than a UAW member. do you know how? bonuses. Toyota does this for their non-union workers. non-union auto workers make about 3 dollars less than their UAW counterparts. but when Toyota hands out an $8k bonus, they actually make more. go figure.
Unions don't only care about their existence. they first look out for whole membership, then the seniority factor.
i'd like to know about you helping to get the union in and then getting them out. sounds interesting. please tell.
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I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
| | | | 
David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
·DIRECTV
·magicjack.com
·AT&T Midwest
| The other thing fiberguy is forgetting was GM's management proved their greed when they took a private corporate jet to the government to ask for money. They were not alone, Ford did it, as well as Dodge.
I am sure that alone wasn't $4,500 to do that! I would be willing to bet that little stint among all three of them was at minimum $30k. I am sure airport fuel and private jet maintenance doesn't come cheap.
Plus there was an article published where GM's management was stating they were paying $70/hr for an employee. Someone disproved that theory that they are paying about the same as the rest of the world, only difference was the manufacturing plants were in places they had free government health care.
Ford wasn't completely stupid though, they decided they didn't want the bailout money, they didn't want the terms associated with it. So they are surviving on their own, yep it still must be that union that ran them into the ground!! (sarcasm applied here)
Unfortunately, for here no one bothers to look at the pink elephant in the room. They just pretend he don't exist still he can't get any more pink.
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
| |
| chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23 | time for the quiki mart
please onsert coin to daa meter and enjoy
tank you wery much come again | |
| dboswell
join:2001-05-22
Plano, TX
·Verizon FIOS
| We need unions I am tired of all the anti-union whiners in here. They must have cush jobs making over $100K a year and never have to worry about being laid off or their benefits reduced. If it were up to corporations every worker would get minimum wage with no benefits so the fat cat executives can get their huge salaries and bonuses. There is no reason for Verizon to cut back on employees since they made over $7 billion last year. If they want to cut back, then get rid of all the contractors they have for DSL support and bring the jobs back to America. I don't care if its cheaper to hire someone from India. If nobody has a job in the U.S., then how are any of these greedy corporations going to sell their product?? I am in a union and yes there are those ultra high seniority members that are lazy and worthless, but 98% of the remaining members are very dedicated and hard workers. | |
| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: We need unions said by dboswell :I don't care if its cheaper to hire someone from India. If nobody has a job in the U.S., then how are any of these greedy corporations going to sell their product?? I am in a union and yes there are those ultra high seniority members that are lazy and worthless, but 98% of the remaining members are very dedicated and hard workers. Its easy, you make your business revolve around serving the greedy fat cats of those corporations like in Moscow. A country that looks like or worse than Detroit for a 1000 miles in each direction, yet 10% year over year GDP growth in Moscow all from serving the oligarchs. Do like a typical South American economy, "either you have a maid, or you are a maid!" | |
| | | WhatNow
Premium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC
| Re: We need unions patcat88 is right when upper management wipes out the middle class then North America becomes like South America. Most of the Union haters here would blame the Unions for disappearing.
Look at all the banks that needed to be bailed out the top still got their bonus and the the non union desk worker got laid off. If the top was really earning their pay they would have known what was really going on in the company.
I don't know how many times my fellow Union workers have kept upper management from making even bigger mistakes then they do. A lot of stuff gets taken care of that management is letting fall through the cracks. They do it for one reason because they care about the customer.
We had a State Director send out a email thanking his craft people for taking care of things while he was dealing with a death in the family. It had made life a lot easier on the home front.
It was the fat cats that make the decisions that brought this country to its knees but it is the grunts that are paying for it. | |
| | cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| I'm quasi anti-union (I find unions can be both good and bad) and I make less than 100k a year.
I see that in general (not all mind you) many union workers make more than is really justified for their position. I'm sorry but it's just true. In union dominated trades there is no free market, you're either forced to pay union extortion for those jobs you have to use union workers for or don't take those kinds of jobs.
I always love it though when the union rank and file complain about the executives and management of the corporations they work for and ignore the excesses of their own union management.
New fullsize pickups for shop stewards who don't carry tools or anything more than a briefcase and literature? Executives holding meetings at resort hotels with $400 a night rooms on at least an annual basis? Or the fact that instead of supporting a union outside the AFL-CIO, they let it be attacked in hopes of getting that companies employees to be members of their own union. Or in 2000 the head of the New York SIEU made over 1/2 million dollars year (with the union paying for his penthouse as well) and when he resigned collected a golden parachute worthy of any corporation at the time? We'll forget the union execs convicted of embezzlement and other crimes.
The reality is that no matter what you're stuffing some execs pocket.
As to union labor itself, I've found it is no better or worse than non-union trades, you always have the lazy and worthless but because of the union structure it's harder to get rid of the dead weight.
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CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber | |
| | | sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
| Re: We need unions Um...because of the union structure it's also harder to pay minimum wage to people who deserve more.
By the way, it's your opinion what people *should* be paid. You have literally no academic qualifications for quantifying the value of one's services.
I don't know about union execs and their corrupt activities. But at the very least they stand for something more than the corruption at the top of each giant corporation. | |
| soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
1 edit | Spiteful Some of you are pretty spiteful. It's lazy thinking when you make comments like "Unions are all bad", "Everyone in the union is lazy". Few things in this world are all good or all bad.Thinking in absolutes is foolish. Every job I've ever worked at since I was 14 has had people that were committed and worked, and those that were lazy and did nothing.
Some of you should just own up to your jealousy and envy. I can't stand how people act like they would turn down benefits, job security, or money if it were offered to you. "No Mr. CEO, I don't want $20 an hour, pay me $10. I don't want benefits either. Let me help get your bonus. I'll gladly slave for you." | |
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kleinml
join:2008-04-18
Levittown, PA | Win Win If they commit suicide then Verizon down head count and they are not burdening the un employment system. I don't see the problem. | |
| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Win Win said by kleinml :If they commit suicide then Verizon down head count and they are not burdening the un employment system. I don't see the problem. What about the unlawful death civil cases? | |
| | | 
Corona
It's cool, I'm takin it back
Premium
join:2000-03-14
Aubrey, TX
| Re: Win Win said by patcat88 :said by kleinml :If they commit suicide then Verizon down head count and they are not burdening the un employment system. I don't see the problem. What about the unlawful death civil cases? From Suicide? Although, it is Mass. the idiocy of a lawsuit like that would be allowed to stand.
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"To be sincere, you don't have to know anything, you just say whatever makes you feel good and spin and smug circles in your tiny fucked up little head, happy as long as you're true to yourself. In other words, Sincerity is bullshit!" -Penn Jillette | |
| visuelz
join:2003-05-01
Brooklyn, NY | slackers My honest opinion is that everyone in the union should get fired. Many of them are slackers of the company. People that work hard should have no reason to join a union. | |
| | ciucca
join:2004-05-24 | Re: slackers Man, you are truly stupid. | |
| |
LA4Life
@verizon.net | unless your one of the many hard workers who work for Verizon......... | |
| | nonymous
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
| said by visuelz :My honest opinion is that everyone in the union should get fired. Many of them are slackers of the company. People that work hard should have no reason to join a union. Have you ever worked for a large corporation. Sure if you have a unique or very very good skill set you may be semi safe. If you are an average hard working person you are not. I did say average in that yes you have a skill set, can walk, talk and do math. You work hard at your job and know your job. Maybe even college degree. Just you are not that unique top percentile that never has to worry. Lose one job ten are waiting in line for you. How many people know the right people or graduate top of class MIT. | |
| | sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH | Wow visuelz. Good job repeating the mantra of the rich and elite. Without a doubt you are a brainwashed middle to lower class fool who has no idea how much you would suffer without unions. | |
|
The Truth
@comcast.net
| The Truth Let's clear a few things up:
Suicide? The union is lucky to even have jobs in this economy. Not to mention, they get FREE health care, FREE dental, FREE vision, tuition reimbursement, a generous pension, 401K matching up to 6%, ample OT, a very liberal sick day system (sickness can last up to 5 days. 1 day or 5, all the same).
Most VZ Outside techs rake in well over $100K a year with OT and I can assure you, many of them do not work half of those hours.
There are locations where the FIOS work has not yet been brought in and the copper is stagnant. Yet the union feels they have the right to keep hundreds of workers on the payroll? UNION's are a good thing but when they become fat and bloated they tend to lose sight of the real reason they are there. A good contract is what they bargain for and the VZ employees have one.
They spout hatred of the company and spit on management. If those morons had to actually get a real job where production was enforced and people were paid based on the quality of their work, they'd be living in a box outside the local bus depot.
Unions are not bad but many members haven't got a clue about the reality of their situation.
As for these layoffs, your union agreed to this. It is in your contract. Stop trying to change it because you were too blind to see it was coming. Eventually you will all be bounced out on your asses and they'll allow those of you who can do the job back in. | |
| |
Real Thruth
@myvzw.com
| Re: The Truth No, let's really clear up a few things, last time I checked my dental was not free, we pay for it on our paychecks every month not to mention I paid over $500 dollars out of pocket for my kids last dental visit, free health care yeah if you consider $100 deductible free if you happen to even go near the emergency room. Let's not forget tuition reimbursement, bad company, I see you don't mention that this great benefit, which benefits both the employee and the company is afforded to all it's employees, union and management, boy what a stupid company actually wanting to make sure most of their employees are college graduates.
Boy have you got your facts wrong, LIBERAL sick time, you should really find out before running your mouth, if you take more than two sick occasions two days each in a rolling twelve month period guess what, you are on a warning/memo. Did I mention that you most likely won't get paid because sick pay starts on the third day.
As for outside techs, yeah some can make over $100K but in essence they are working two jobs, sometimes working 15-17 hours, that is a double shift and most of the people I know unlike your perception are actually working their ass off. Trucks have gps tracking devices and managers are always out doing quality inspections for those that would slack off but most importantly no one is stopping you from applying, just be sure you don't mind crawling around asbestos lined piping, dirt, spiders, attics and climbing poles when it is raining or snowing
All I see is hate | |
| | |
The Truth
@comcast.net
| Re: The Truth Mr Real Truth seems angry. Would it be that you don't want the general public to know how good you have it?
Your dental is indeed free, minus co-pay.
$100 for an ER visit. Unless you are a stuntman by trade, that would be maybe twice a year, hopefully none. An entire $200! Goodness, where will you get that scratch together?
Tuition. Thank you for making my point. The point was to show how well you folks are treated. Clearly you agree.
Yes, LIBERAL sick time. 2 sick period (1 - 5 days = 1 period) in 12 months gets you a warning on a 5 step program. So you have to be sick quite a bit more than that to get any disciplinary action. Then you have FMLA which saves your job should you have a long term illness.
Yes, outside techs make well over $100K and many do work very hard. However, many do not and enjoy naps, the paper and all sorts of NON work time. The GPS is a joke and rarely enforced. The foreman have to cover 3 times the amount of techs these days and cover hundreds of miles. If they push too hard they get union problems. Too little, upper management craps on them.
As for applying, HAHAHAHAHA, do you think I just know all this by chance? When you are in a family of Bell Heads out here in the midwest, you learn a thing or two. As for me, I'll take your spiders and see you a fully engulfed apartment house. Care to trade? | |
| | | |
Real Thruth
@verizon.net
| Re: The Truth said by The Truth :
Mr Real Truth seems angry. Would it be that you don't want the general public to know how good you have it?
Your dental is indeed free, minus co-pay.
$100 for an ER visit. Unless you are a stuntman by trade, that would be maybe twice a year, hopefully none. An entire $200! Goodness, where will you get that scratch together?
Tuition. Thank you for making my point. The point was to show how well you folks are treated. Clearly you agree.
Yes, LIBERAL sick time. 2 sick period (1 - 5 days = 1 period) in 12 months gets you a warning on a 5 step program. So you have to be sick quite a bit more than that to get any disciplinary action. Then you have FMLA which saves your job should you have a long term illness.
Yes, outside techs make well over $100K and many do work very hard. However, many do not and enjoy naps, the paper and all sorts of NON work time. The GPS is a joke and rarely enforced. The foreman have to cover 3 times the amount of techs these days and cover hundreds of miles. If they push too hard they get union problems. Too little, upper management craps on them.
As for applying, HAHAHAHAHA, do you think I just know all this by chance? When you are in a family of Bell Heads out here in the midwest, you learn a thing or two. As for me, I'll take your spiders and see you a fully engulfed apartment house. Care to trade?
Angry I don't think so, like I said all I see is stupidity spilling forth, but as you said you are in the Midwest so it might be different.
I see how you easily skipped over the fact that I advised we do pay for dental out of every other paycheck once a month, tell those techs who have been fired that gps is a joke, I'm sure they won't agree with you, not that I care since I agree that they should be fired if they are not working and getting paid. Sick day steps are three steps, I am not in the midwest so again it is different in the state, if you pay attention you would know that verizon has many different contracts in different states, all different.
But you take the cake, you are a fire fighter, now public employee unions are a bleeding us dry, lazy ass fire fighters who work three days and have four off and still rake in over $100K, seems you're just mad because someone else can make more than your lazy ass, and yes I would trade in a second for your cushy gig.
I know firefighters and 99% of your time is spent not doing crap and the other playing with water hoses which is what most kids always wanted to do when they grew up. No your job is not hard, now cops, that's hard, you guys, please
Now from your comments you indicate that you come from a family that is labor challenged(lazy) and you just extended that trait to a different sector of the labor market, don't compare everyone else in the country to your lazy kin.
You really are disingenuous, you make it sound like FMLA is a union benefit. FMLA is a federal government program that affords every single American in every job time off but only if you have a legitimate health problem which a doctor has signed off. As for tuition assistance I don't know about the Midwest but a majority of the employers in this state offer tuition assistance, private and public, union and non-union, again most employers are smart enough to help educate their employees and they get to write it off.
You remind me of those individuals who are lazy and always fucking off and when they move into management they are always on peoples ass because they see everything through their deficient ethics and assume that everyone else is out there doing the same unethical crap they used to do.
Just because you lack work ethics along with your relatives don't insult those of us who put in an honest days work for an honest days pay. I would gladly put my daily effort against yours any time.
Peace | |
| | | | | OpieSimmons
join:2008-05-10
New York, NY
1 edit | Re: The Truth Geez. Firefighters are getting bashed now? They run into burning buildings. Let's put the 2 jobs in perspective here, ok? | |
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Re: Does Verizon pay Property Tax in other States?