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story category Wi-Fi Theft May Be Defense in Filesharing Cases
International cases establishing history of successes with this defense
12:04PM Saturday Sep 06 2008 by KathrynV
tags: legal · Fileswapping · world · wireless
Two women who were facing court charges in Denmark for illegal filesharing have successfully used the defense that their Wi-Fi had been piggybacked by unknown users and that they therefore are not responsible for any illegal p2p sharing that occurred on their connections. Both women admitted that they had p2p software on their computers but insisted that they weren’t the ones doing the filesharing. The court agreed that it was not their responsibility to pay fines for filesharing that they couldn’t be proven to have committed themselves. This is not the first case in which this ruling has occurred. A previous case in Germany found the same thing and now a case in the UK may try to use that same defense. With Wi-Fi theft becoming a serious crime in the U.S. those people accused of filesharing here may want to consider the defense.

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Forums » Wi-Fi Theft May Be Defense in Filesharing Cases
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Rothan Tik
Destroyer of worlds
Premium
join:2000-11-07
Danvers, MA

Lock your

damn wi-fi!
Lineage

join:2006-10-19
USA

Re: Lock your

No, don't, because it will save your hide in a RIAA case

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
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Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast


edit:
September 6th, @12:21PM

Re: Lock your

said by Lineage See Profile :

No, don't, because it will save your hide in a RIAA case
No, it won't. Because it will cost you a lot of money to defend yourself in court. And it will still be cheaper to settle with the RIAA then it will be to go to court.

And if I was the RIAA, anyone who uses such a defense would be turned in to their ISP as breaking TOS and sharing their connection. The malefactor could not only lose their money defending themselves, they could lose their broadband connection as well.
--
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Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
lordofwhee

join:2007-10-21
Everett, WA

Re: Lock your

There's a difference between sharing your connection and having it stolen. Are you responsible if someone steals your car then runs over five people?

anonanonanonanon

@rr.com

Re: Lock your

Yes, actually. You will be liable because it was your car...

MisterMarcus

join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Lock your

said by anonanonanonanon :

Yes, actually. You will be liable because it was your car...
That's FUD.

If someone steals my car and I'm aware of the theft, and I report it promptly, and the thief runs over people, I am not to blame.

In the Wi-Fi stealing deal, it's not easy to detect when someone's stealing your signal. Thus it's not easy to prove that I did or did not know someone else used my signal. Unless you can prove that I knowingly and willfully left it unlocked for that purpose - which also isn't easy to prove. But I bet I can find quite a few specialists who will substantiate how easy it is to crack Wi-Fi security in any case.

snipper_cr

join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL
clubs:

Re: Lock your

said by MisterMarcus See Profile :

said by anonanonanonanon :

Yes, actually. You will be liable because it was your car...
That's FUD.

But I bet I can find quite a few specialists who will substantiate how easy it is to crack Wi-Fi security in any case.
I'll vouch for you on that one. I can actively decrypt a WEP enabled network in about 20 minutes and gain full unencrypted access. Passively with no clients in about 3-4 days. This is why I always encourage people to use WPA with a strong password.
--
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Pv8man999

@wideopenwest.com

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TK Junk Mail See Profile

Re: Lock your

Sorry snipper-cr

WPA and WPA2 have been almost as easy to crack as WEP.
All you need is just one handshake packet (person needs to turn PC on, or connect once)

I don't think there is a such thing as a secure wireless connection.

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
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clubs:
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Re: Lock your

said by Pv8man999 :

Sorry snipper-cr

WPA and WPA2 have been almost as easy to crack as WEP.
All you need is just one handshake packet (person needs to turn PC on, or connect once)

I don't think there is a such thing as a secure wireless connection.
WRONG!!
--
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Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

Noah Vail
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Lorton, VA
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Re: Lock your

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

WRONG!!
Would you be so kind as to provide evidence of a secure (uncrackable) wireless connection?

I'll just sit here and listen to your cricket farm while you rush right out and get that evidence.

NV
--
Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd.

snipper_cr

join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL
clubs:

Re: Lock your

Well as far as WPA goes, its "uncrackable" if you have a strong password. As PV9man99 said, yes, you CAN technically "hack" a WPA network but in reality all it is is just a brute force attack on the 4 way handshake.

And you do not even have to wait for them to turn on/off their computer. Just do a DeAuthenticate attack (assuming your own network) and that will force it to reconnect. Capture the 4 way WPA handshake and then set it to brute force.

If you password is something like "soda" which is commonly found in a dictionary, its probably going to be breakable. But if it is something strong like "pv8man999" then unless you brute force THAT (which would take years with a million computers) you can reasonably assume its safe.

In reality you are not really attacking WPA as you do WEP. You really are getting down to either TKIP or AES and all you can do is brute force it.
--
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

said by snipper_cr See Profile :

said by MisterMarcus See Profile :

said by anonanonanonanon :

Yes, actually. You will be liable because it was your car...
That's FUD.

But I bet I can find quite a few specialists who will substantiate how easy it is to crack Wi-Fi security in any case.
I'll vouch for you on that one. I can actively decrypt a WEP enabled network in about 20 minutes and gain full unencrypted access. Passively with no clients in about 3-4 days. This is why I always encourage people to use WPA with a strong password.
You also want to turn off the SSID Beacon and turn on MAC Filtering. While the lack of an SSID will prevent the network from being "seen" by simple probe packages and the Operating System it will not eliminate it. The MAC filtering will require the attacker to monitor the transmissions to get a MAC Address to claim to be so makes it harder but not impossible to get into the Router. In both cases you want to make it as hard as possible to get in so as to make them go after easier prey.

snipper_cr

join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL
clubs:

Re: Lock your

said by RARPSL See Profile :

You also want to turn off the SSID Beacon and turn on MAC Filtering. While the lack of an SSID will prevent the network from being "seen" by simple probe packages and the Operating System it will not eliminate it. The MAC filtering will require the attacker to monitor the transmissions to get a MAC Address to claim to be so makes it harder but not impossible to get into the Router. In both cases you want to make it as hard as possible to get in so as to make them go after easier prey.
Smart advice from an even smarter man! Indeed, mac adresses can be spoofed, cloaked networks can be unclocked but as RARPSL said the idea is to make it as hard as possible to get a hacker (of which i would say .01% of the population actually can hack a wireless network, and .01% of those would care to go after yours) to hack your network.

Also some people debate the difference between WPA and WPA2 when in reality its just the stream cypher than changes - TKIP vs AES. WPA2 just standardizes the use of AES although with compatible hardware, WPA can use AES as well. There a difference between TKIP and AES? Sure... but not like it will matter.
--
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

Re: Lock your

said by snipper_cr See Profile :

said by RARPSL See Profile :

You also want to turn off the SSID Beacon and turn on MAC Filtering. While the lack of an SSID will prevent the network from being "seen" by simple probe packages and the Operating System it will not eliminate it. The MAC filtering will require the attacker to monitor the transmissions to get a MAC Address to claim to be so makes it harder but not impossible to get into the Router. In both cases you want to make it as hard as possible to get in so as to make them go after easier prey.
Smart advice from an even smarter man! Indeed, mac adresses can be spoofed, cloaked networks can be unclocked but as RARPSL said the idea is to make it as hard as possible to get a hacker (of which i would say .01% of the population actually can hack a wireless network, and .01% of those would care to go after yours) to hack your network.
Thank you for the praise.

The point is that if someone really wants to get on your Wireless Router, they can BUT most people will just look for an easy target and using encryption, no SSID Broadcast, MAC Filtering, etc. will make you not an easy target or not easily visible. The ones who will normally get hacked/used are running a wide open router and the more you lock it down the lower the chance yours will get used. If a casual hacker was looking for a router to use they'd go for the one that needs no effort to use.

Whenever I set up a router for anyone I lock it down as much as possible just for safety use. How much I lock it is partly do to location and other factors. An Apartment complex location gets a no SSID Beacon (if it is not "There" it will not even be seen). I go with WPA (or WAP if WPA is not available) and MAC Filtering (unless there is a need to be able to have Laptops that can temporally use the router). The WPA/WAP codes are stored on the main machine to allow the add-on laptop along with "How To" instructions.

Rothan Tik
Destroyer of worlds
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said by MisterMarcus See Profile :

said by anonanonanonanon :

Yes, actually. You will be liable because it was your car...
That's FUD.

If someone steals my car and I'm aware of the theft, and I report it promptly, and the thief runs over people, I am not to blame.

In the Wi-Fi stealing deal, it's not easy to detect when someone's stealing your signal. Thus it's not easy to prove that I did or did not know someone else used my signal. Unless you can prove that I knowingly and willfully left it unlocked for that purpose - which also isn't easy to prove. But I bet I can find quite a few specialists who will substantiate how easy it is to crack Wi-Fi security in any case.
I think one would notice when their connection starts crawling because they've become a seeder for other downloads. That's asking too much sense from people though...

MisterMarcus

join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Lock your

said by Rothan Tik See Profile :

said by MisterMarcus See Profile :

said by anonanonanonanon :

Yes, actually. You will be liable because it was your car...
That's FUD.

If someone steals my car and I'm aware of the theft, and I report it promptly, and the thief runs over people, I am not to blame.

In the Wi-Fi stealing deal, it's not easy to detect when someone's stealing your signal. Thus it's not easy to prove that I did or did not know someone else used my signal. Unless you can prove that I knowingly and willfully left it unlocked for that purpose - which also isn't easy to prove. But I bet I can find quite a few specialists who will substantiate how easy it is to crack Wi-Fi security in any case.
I think one would notice when their connection starts crawling because they've become a seeder for other downloads. That's asking too much sense from people though...
Your Honor, Time Warner has had so many issues with the network, especially on Sunday evenings when the connection slows to a crawl. You see, because I'm in an apartment complex, the cable internet is split amongst everyone here, and the node gets oversaturated when everyone is on it simultaneously. Slowdowns are quite common. My attorney has about 40 tenants who will testify to that.

See how easy that was? Connection degradation is so common it can't be used as an excuse. Unless you're on FioS...which I am not.

roc5955
Premium
join:2005-11-26
Rosendale, NY
·RoadRunner Cable

said by MisterMarcus See Profile :

Unless you can prove that I knowingly and willfully left it unlocked for that purpose - which also isn't easy to prove. But I bet I can find quite a few specialists who will substantiate how easy it is to crack Wi-Fi security in any case.
Don't wifi routers come unlocked by default? If you don't lock it, it is the burden of the prosecutor to determine that it wasn't stolen. They have to prove your guilt. Though this may have changed since Bushco, Inc. was elected, but I don't think they have repealed that amendment of the constitution YET!
--
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Lock your

said by roc5955 See Profile :

Though this may have changed since Bushco, Inc. was elected ...
Elected? I thought he stole the election, twice.

But to be on point, I doubt this defense would work in the USA. In civil court, you are presumed liable unless you can use a preponderance of evidence to prove you are not liable. Even if you can claim that someone else was mooching your wifi, you still have to prove that it was that "someone else" engaging in the infringing activities and not you.
--
"At the moment of conception."
wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH

Re: Lock your

said by pnh102 See Profile :

But to be on point, I doubt this defense would work in the USA. In civil court, you are presumed liable unless you can use a preponderance of evidence to prove you are not liable. Even if you can claim that someone else was mooching your wifi, you still have to prove that it was that "someone else" engaging in the infringing activities and not you.
Even in a civil case, the person raising the suit has to prove that you were the person infringing. They are looking for an end node to assign responsibility to. They have to prove that they have the right one.

cw

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Lock your

said by wentlanc See Profile :

Even in a civil case, the person raising the suit has to prove that you were the person infringing. They are looking for an end node to assign responsibility to. They have to prove that they have the right one.
True. And in many situations the RIAA has succeeded in doing this. Regardless of whether wifi was "hacked" or not the end user was still held responsible.
--
"At the moment of conception."

MisterMarcus

join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Lock your

said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by wentlanc See Profile :

Even in a civil case, the person raising the suit has to prove that you were the person infringing. They are looking for an end node to assign responsibility to. They have to prove that they have the right one.
True. And in many situations the RIAA has succeeded in doing this. Regardless of whether wifi was "hacked" or not the end user was still held responsible.
That's because their defenses were laughable.

You got one chick who says, "I'm too old to listen to that". Nevermind she has kids who aren't.

You got another chick who says, "well, my kid did it, so I'm not responsible, and you can't go after her, because she's underage". Nevermind the fact that in that case, custody applies...making the mother responsible by proxy.

You got another chick who now says, "but someone stole my WiFi!"

I'm interested as to why nobody has said:

- For uploads: "A virus was loaded on my computer, named as an MP3 file. I opened it from email apparently. My antivirus did not catch it. It in turn sent the MP3 to a bunch of people so they could also get infected."

- For downloads: "Yes, I did download that song...from my own web service. I already owned it, I just shifted it to a new computer."

- For uploads: "I thought it was just a song sampler from Amazon MP3."

- For downloads: "No, I recorded that from SIRIUS radio".

On the first one, it's way too possible for that to have happened.

On the second one, that happens all the time.

On the third one, it's stretching it...but entirely possible. Especially if you then went back and actually bought the song from there at $1 after you got the threat, proving you didn't steal it (theoretically).

On the fourth one, it's not illegal to record radio, so that'll shut them up quickly.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer; just throwing junk out there.

woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
·DSL EXTREME

depends on what state you live in
--
BlooMe

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Corona, NY
·Verizon Online DSL

Uh-huh... sharing your connection is LEGAL, unless you're using some sort of satellite/WISP that specifically bans it in their TOS. Else, WiFi routers would be illegal, ya know.
(Although people really should start locking down their WiFi, since open WiFi invites a LOT more than MAFIAA lawsuits; DDoS attacks for instance...)
Now, if you use your connection as wholesale bandwidth and resell it, then I'd agree, you might be subject to loss of your connection, since you most likely aren't supposed to sell your broadband unless it's specifically marked as wholesale...

TK Junk Mail
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Re: Lock your

said by a333 See Profile :

Uh-huh... sharing your connection is LEGAL,
It is against the TOS for Comcast to share your connection with those not part of the contracted premises - even with WiFi. And I remember reading that TWC has similar wording.

»www.comcast.net/terms/use/#prohibited
Network and usage restrictions
....make available to anyone outside the Premises the ability to use the Service (for example, though wi-fi or other methods of networking), in whole or in part, directly or indirectly.

connect the Comcast Equipment to any computer outside of your Premises;

What obligations do I have under this Policy?
...you are also responsible for any use or misuse of the Service that violates this Policy, even if it was committed by a friend, family member, or guest with access to your Service account. Therefore, you must take steps to ensure that others do not use your account to gain unauthorized access to the Service by, for example, strictly maintaining the confidentiality of your Service login and password. In all cases, you are solely responsible for the security of any device you choose to connect to the Service, including any data stored or shared on that device.

It is also your responsibility to secure the Customer Equipment and any other Premises equipment or programs not provided by Comcast that connect to the Service from external threats such as viruses, spam, bot nets, and other methods of intrusion.

--
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Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Re: Lock your

The Verizon Online TOS (DSL and FiOS) has the following clauses as well:

AUTHORIZED USER, ACCOUNT USE, AND RESPONSIBILITIES.
...
2. You are responsible for all use of your Service and account, whether by you or someone using your account with or without your permission, including all secondary or sub-accounts associated with your primary account, and to pay for all activity associated with your account. You agree to comply with all applicable laws, regulations and rules regarding your use of the Service and to only use the Service within the United States (unless otherwise permitted by this Agreement).
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Lock your

So if a car company says in its sales agreement, you are responsible for what happens when your car is stolen, would you own a car?

Of how about if someone breaks your WiFi connection and downloads child porn, are you willing to go to jail for it?

hrickpa

join:2001-06-07
Reading, PA
·Covad Communications


edit:
September 6th, @03:25PM

I had that problem. I had an older wireless router that supported WEP only. The key got cracked, my neighbors was using my connection to get codes for their satellite TV boxes and download MP3s. Now there is software out there that can detect unauthorized users and gather information about the unauthorized computer. the unauthorized computers that was on my network here are some of the info I gathered on the first computer
the OS is windows 2000
using a DLink wireless card according to the MAC address
the user name was: User

the second computer
running win xp sp1
Toshiba According to the MAC address

the way i found about the unauthorized computers it when i beta tested a program called network magic by Port
Magic
now there a programs called Nmap - Zenmap for windows

I have replace the older router with a newer router that supports WPA and WPA2 i am currently using WPA2-AES

snipper_cr

join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL
clubs:

And what happens when you get turned over to the company that you are paying for service? A slap on the wrist? Account termination? I highly doubt the latter because unlike the RIAA who likes screwing its customers, ISPs are a bit more determined (note I say a bit) to keep customers who are paying for their service. Even people who are being scolded by Comcast for breaking the now visible (previously invisble) are not terminated... at least not immediately.

So a slap on the wrist from an ISP is, personally, more favorable that the RIAA's borderline extortion »RIAA 'Settlement-o-matic' Site Taunts You
--
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
Lose your broadband connection or lose a bunch of money? Such a hard decision. And if you are in an area with only one ISP, a simple lawsuit will get your connection back. Monopolies don't get the same freedoms of other companies.

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
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Margate City, NJ
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Re: Lock your

said by insomniac84 See Profile :

Lose your broadband connection or lose a bunch of money? Such a hard decision. And if you are in an area with only one ISP, a simple lawsuit will get your connection back. Monopolies don't get the same freedoms of other companies.
Sue away. That will cost you more than paying any overage. And if you are disconnected, you are out of luck.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

Re: Lock your

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

Sue away. That will cost you more than paying any overage. And if you are disconnected, you are out of luck.
If they break the law, they will be paying for those fees. Monopolies can't exclude people.
stevephl

join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO
Simple answer is not to steal other peoples work then you will not need to rely on "someone stole my wireless single" defense.
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard

join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
if i had a seeder stealing my wireless id be tempted to just start deleting their collection before pulling the plug.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard

join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

no matter what level of lockdown you have short of the radio being off a wireless network can be cracked.

however WPA2 is like strong deadbolts, an alarm system, and motion sensing lights on your house, you strive to make yours less appealing then someone Else's and the standard issue thief will go somewhere else easier.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Boz88

@swbell.net

It's freaky

Just downright freaky how many wide open WiFi routers there are out there.

Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: It's freaky

I know, in my area there are two open WiFi routers out of four that I can detect, that's a fifty percent rate.

The sad thing is that it's so easy to lock down your WiFi cloud, my router had instructions on how to lock it down using WPA2-TKIP encryption and I am sure many WiFi routers have instructions on how to lock down the router with basic encryption measures. But I went a step further and went with WPA2-AES to take advantage of better security and connection speed (my router is 802.11n). It wasn't that hard to figure it out.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaiire
romponmafia

join:2007-09-04
SK11

Wi-Fi Theft

So it would seem that one of the possible ways out of being prosecuted is NOT to invoke security measures on your router or PC. I find that perverse. As I understand it, it is legal to download, but illegal to upload to surely the easy answer is to restrict or block the uploading side of P2P software. Or use proxy servers.

Dogfather
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Wasn't me

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f6qFBQD9U

DivineDark

join:2001-08-30
Oklahoma City, OK
clubs:

It was me

I was the one downloading all that britney spears on your wifi. muahaha * rubs hands together in a sinister manor

MoeDumb
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23


edit:
September 6th, @02:08PM

Re: It was me

Click for full size
sinister manor
In this one?

DivineDark

join:2001-08-30
Oklahoma City, OK
clubs:

Re: It was me

Ha ha Got me!
voipdabbler

join:2006-04-27
Kalispell, MT

Foreign case law not precedent in US.

I hate to burst your bubble, but foreign case law is not a precedent in the US. This type of defense has been rejected in litigation in certain jurisdictions in the US. I suspect the one incentive that will compel end users to learn to enable security on their wireless routers is the imposition of caps and overage charges that some ISPs want to implement. Financial incentives seem to work the best to get consumers to educate themselves.

MrWags
What Would Scooby Doo?

join:2004-03-10
Sycamore, IL

Well....

With the tendancy lately for our courts to talk about, and embrace european law, such precedents may actually be recognized.

hdtvtechno22

join:2008-08-22
Chicago, IL

Idea ?

You know what ?

There should be a standard system with high grade security
and with the Wireless password enabled when you buy it
and that you cant disable it.. you could only change passwords

that way people would be forced to use passwords no matter what..

alltel

@windstream.net

You can lock down wifi

All that you have to do is set a wep password then turn off the auto dchp so that it will not give out an IP automatically and set up to deny unknown clients then set up all the IP's manually and the router will ask you if you want to deny or not. just figured I would help any one wanting to secure there network

chronoss2008
Premium
join:2008-03-29

wifi hacking

so other way i get into your box, i trojan you then up software that auto sets up wifi and then what your safe ok.
houghe9

join:2008-02-27
Lexington Park, MD

...

"Lock your
damn wi-fi!"

It is people with attitudes like yours that make it worse imo. Instead of being polite and, offer a helpful suggestion you just ramble a couple of lines that help absolutely no one.

It is a good thing that we have decent people that post actual help for people who may not be as tech savvy. It has been said throughout this post the locking it with wep is a weak solution. Going by your solution of "lock your damn wi-fi" anyone who has any type of encryption, should not be held responsible for anything that may happen from their connection.

This does bring up some interesting questions...

Should someone be held liable criminally or civilly for actions from their ip address if the connection is encrypted?

What is the minimum amount of encryption does one have to have to not be liable? Not all devices support all encryption schemes.
justchange

join:2008-09-07
Portland, OR